I really appreciate it when you write about your relationship with Joe. It helps me sort things out in my own life. I am currently married to someone with strong narcissistic tendencies (it'll be 18 years on the Summer Solstice). We have a shared project together (our only offspring) in which we grow literally tons of organic produce each year, with a small group of volunteers, and give the surplus produce to food charities. Like you and Joe, our project wouldn't have thrived without the combination of the strengths and skills we each bring to the process.
For many years I contemplated divorce after feeling so beat down and diminished by his oppressive ways...But, for a variety of reasons, decided to see if I/we could work things out through a combination of therapy and a shared commitment to a spiritual path. I am happy to say, almost two years into the therapy (my own...He refuses to participate) and daily readings from a variety of spiritual teachers that we are both resonant with, that I am finally becoming more consistently empowered (non-compliant with his diminishment/put-down/controlling strategies) and finally feeling peace and possibility for a creative bright NOW (and future) in my home and shared project.
I joined FacePlant (as you like to call it) at the same time I started therapy and also reconnected with you, Vicki, around the same time through FB. I just want to say thank you for the honesty and self-reflection and vulnerability you bring to sharing your story. It has helped me immensely.
I barely survived my relationship with a narcissist; sending you huge love for the work it takes to recover our shattered sense of self (let alone self-esteem) afterwards.
I'm fascinated by the discussion around the word 'patriarchy' in the comments (and in conversations I've had), a lot of people think it means 'men', whereas patriarchy is a dominator ideology, and most women have internalized it to perform it. It is about the power/domination/privilege of one group of people (men) over all others, including the environment and all other than human species on this planet. It doesn't really matter if you're a 'good man' personally or not - it's not about individuals, it's systemic.
Not all human societies have been organised this way, there have also been city-state civilizations that were not patriarchal, such as pre-Hellenic Crete (Minoan) and the Central Anatolian (now Turkish) city of Çatalhöyük. Riane Esler's 'The Chalice and The Blade' laid this all out 30 years ago... but it's an inconvenient truth for many to get their heads around. It wasn't always this way, maybe it won't always be this way...
I too was (allowed myself to be seduced into) in a long relationship with a severely personality disturbed man. His dx was borderline, but I don't know if pigeonholing them matters. Such pain, such confusion! And yes, such decimation of the spirit. Constant lies, constant manipulation. Spending half of my time trying to figure out what I could do differently. It nearly destroyed me. Argh!
And yes, I blamed patriarchy. :-) Only later, when the scales fell from my eyes and I began to see the personality disturbed among us, I realized it wasn't that. And I finally took responsibilty for my part of it. I had almost no boundaries. No wonder I was targeted. If I had come out as a lesbian, I would have been targeted by a personality disordered woman. They sense the lack of boundaries and zero in. It's like a big flag.
Yes, it's about domination. The sex/gender stuff is a distraction and a misdirection. It turns us against one another, men and women, while the real culprits enjoy the fruits of "divide and conquer."
And yes, some of the early civs were not like that. Caral (Peru) is another.
You've given a richer explanation of the patriarchy. Thank you always for your depth kindness and intelligence. The few times I've told this story to women friends, some much younger, they share stories like yours and ask me to write it. So it's an underground river flowing through younger generations as well.
Reading the last comment, I had a strong deja vu, which happens sometimes when I'm about to make a big mistake or learn something. I truly do have to admit to the sensation as person "of the alternative," or left, if that works, other, or artist, I have to admit as a man spent a life trying to be part of the solutions, and an old white man, living long life of voluntary simplicity, I can feel a sense of negation at times during our social critiques. Not every man like me feels this, but some guys do. I just have to remember to remember to remember
I so enjoy your postings. I am 78 and attended one of your workshops with Joe when your book came out, way back in time. It impacted my life for the positive. I was married for only 2 years of my life and, at this point, I would not trade places with any of my married friends. Yes, I am finding the upkeep on my house increasingly difficult as I age alone, but I am resisting the "warehousing" option as long as I possibly can. Love that term you used in this recent post - warehouse, so true.
nobody can MAKE someone else feel anything, including guilt.
nobody has more power over what happens in someone else’s brain than the person whose brain it is.
that said, robin diangelo and white fragility are guilt-tripping
lots of people need lots of education about boundary issues. i myself encountered life experiences that challenged me to step past my defensiveness from past ostracism, and it was totally worth it despite temporary discomfort. no pain no gain. now i see many others, particularly younger folks and those from oppressed groups, who are stuck in the same trap i was. you do not have to stay there.
here are 2 excellent and very accessible resources for awareness about boundaries:
I have not finished reading the piece but I have one little question for you as writer and thinker, about the word patriarchy. Once this word, and I am 73, could be used simply to describe older men and their position in the family and therefore in society. Of course, it was seen as the superior position. None the less the patriarch could be a respectable character, and those patriarchal communities which were spread through all cultures were not seen as entirely evil simply because of their patriarchs. And the patriarch could embody all the good qualities of a man. My grandfather for example. Now patriarchy, in our left wing parlance is the embodiment of evil. OK, and yes the world is a messed up place and its certainly not without justification, very easy to place the blame on those who have been in charge. Patriarchy alone is the final answer to the worlds problems. I suspect this is not the case. Something tells me that if we could magically transform the history of world to matriarchal it would not be a magic bullet. To me there is mass scale over simplification in this kind of thinking of, a type of thinking that can be seen in many other questions as well and is leading us astray. More examples later.
What is a better word for the status hierarchy of men at the top and women, children, old people, disabled people, people of colo treated as "less than." I'm happy to use that word. Honorable men are a blessing to their families and the world. It's like the word frugal. A frugal man husbanded resources well, but it came to mean penny pinching, self denying. The deeper issue in our society is that we are not devoted to everyone, not just the patriarch, having the freedom to unfold our lives in a society that welcomes our gifts. a we-the-people society. Even those words back then did not include women or slaves! Or indigenous people who were decimated.
I understand the confusion and resentment of men who unconsciously thought their gender alone gave them privileges. The pendulum swing has swept many decent men into the category of Patriarchy. The solution is not to swing the pendulum back. Imagine how women in Afghanistan felt when the Taliban took away their rights and put them in burkas, after years of the freedom to study, to wear what they liked, to make the friends they wanted to make.
Right now, I bring this up because the rights we've worked for are under threat.
After this discussion, I deleted a response. Perhaps you are right, or right enough. My feeling, that the way we use the term patriarchy is conceptually a bit inadequate, maybe does not hold up to a greater reality, which is that the evils of our society have indeed been organized along patriarchal lines.
Nope, they haven't. After many years on the patriarchal side, and all-in with foremother Mary Daly and her clever careening word games, I have concluded we'd been barking at the wrong tree.
It's not men. It's the psychopaths. It's the pathocracy.
It can seem like men, because most of the psychopaths are male (only about 25% are female).
I too am so moved by this piece Vicki, your soul searching, your truth telling, knowing more about your version of this journey toward wholeness that is each of ours to do. I would add to the diversity piece, neuro- diversity as powerfully represented by Nick Walker (they/them) in their book Neuroqueer Heresies. Neurodiversity as seen outside of the “disease” paradigm, not as “divergence” from the norm but as its own uniquely valid and beautiful expression of another way of being human. I am privileged to be walking that path with my grandchildren.
Wow. So much in here, “telling it like it is” and was, along with bits of history that confirm so much of what I already feel about you. So glad we share this world, and especially this tiny bit of it. Keep sharing your truths!
Important work in coming of aging is reflecting on the stages of my evolution into who I am today. I appreciate your telling of your story. It shows a thought process I respect. Thank you for sharing.
Wonderful, heart- and mind-opening piece, my friend! So much to ponder. So much to care about. Age does offer an expanded perspective. I remember in the '80s when I first met you and your UV family.... how impressed I was by your chosen lifestyle. But I always silently wondered, "How are the women doing...really?" I have found myself asking this question again and again in many contexts since then.
I really appreciate it when you write about your relationship with Joe. It helps me sort things out in my own life. I am currently married to someone with strong narcissistic tendencies (it'll be 18 years on the Summer Solstice). We have a shared project together (our only offspring) in which we grow literally tons of organic produce each year, with a small group of volunteers, and give the surplus produce to food charities. Like you and Joe, our project wouldn't have thrived without the combination of the strengths and skills we each bring to the process.
For many years I contemplated divorce after feeling so beat down and diminished by his oppressive ways...But, for a variety of reasons, decided to see if I/we could work things out through a combination of therapy and a shared commitment to a spiritual path. I am happy to say, almost two years into the therapy (my own...He refuses to participate) and daily readings from a variety of spiritual teachers that we are both resonant with, that I am finally becoming more consistently empowered (non-compliant with his diminishment/put-down/controlling strategies) and finally feeling peace and possibility for a creative bright NOW (and future) in my home and shared project.
I joined FacePlant (as you like to call it) at the same time I started therapy and also reconnected with you, Vicki, around the same time through FB. I just want to say thank you for the honesty and self-reflection and vulnerability you bring to sharing your story. It has helped me immensely.
I barely survived my relationship with a narcissist; sending you huge love for the work it takes to recover our shattered sense of self (let alone self-esteem) afterwards.
I'm fascinated by the discussion around the word 'patriarchy' in the comments (and in conversations I've had), a lot of people think it means 'men', whereas patriarchy is a dominator ideology, and most women have internalized it to perform it. It is about the power/domination/privilege of one group of people (men) over all others, including the environment and all other than human species on this planet. It doesn't really matter if you're a 'good man' personally or not - it's not about individuals, it's systemic.
Not all human societies have been organised this way, there have also been city-state civilizations that were not patriarchal, such as pre-Hellenic Crete (Minoan) and the Central Anatolian (now Turkish) city of Çatalhöyük. Riane Esler's 'The Chalice and The Blade' laid this all out 30 years ago... but it's an inconvenient truth for many to get their heads around. It wasn't always this way, maybe it won't always be this way...
I too was (allowed myself to be seduced into) in a long relationship with a severely personality disturbed man. His dx was borderline, but I don't know if pigeonholing them matters. Such pain, such confusion! And yes, such decimation of the spirit. Constant lies, constant manipulation. Spending half of my time trying to figure out what I could do differently. It nearly destroyed me. Argh!
And yes, I blamed patriarchy. :-) Only later, when the scales fell from my eyes and I began to see the personality disturbed among us, I realized it wasn't that. And I finally took responsibilty for my part of it. I had almost no boundaries. No wonder I was targeted. If I had come out as a lesbian, I would have been targeted by a personality disordered woman. They sense the lack of boundaries and zero in. It's like a big flag.
Yes, it's about domination. The sex/gender stuff is a distraction and a misdirection. It turns us against one another, men and women, while the real culprits enjoy the fruits of "divide and conquer."
And yes, some of the early civs were not like that. Caral (Peru) is another.
You've given a richer explanation of the patriarchy. Thank you always for your depth kindness and intelligence. The few times I've told this story to women friends, some much younger, they share stories like yours and ask me to write it. So it's an underground river flowing through younger generations as well.
Reading the last comment, I had a strong deja vu, which happens sometimes when I'm about to make a big mistake or learn something. I truly do have to admit to the sensation as person "of the alternative," or left, if that works, other, or artist, I have to admit as a man spent a life trying to be part of the solutions, and an old white man, living long life of voluntary simplicity, I can feel a sense of negation at times during our social critiques. Not every man like me feels this, but some guys do. I just have to remember to remember to remember
I so enjoy your postings. I am 78 and attended one of your workshops with Joe when your book came out, way back in time. It impacted my life for the positive. I was married for only 2 years of my life and, at this point, I would not trade places with any of my married friends. Yes, I am finding the upkeep on my house increasingly difficult as I age alone, but I am resisting the "warehousing" option as long as I possibly can. Love that term you used in this recent post - warehouse, so true.
So timely, Vicki. Lots to ponder.
I rarely read Kunstler any more... same stuff over and over. He is still funny sometimes. :-)
Brand, I never could stand. What do they all have in common? Methink... waking up from woke.
nobody can MAKE someone else feel anything, including guilt.
nobody has more power over what happens in someone else’s brain than the person whose brain it is.
that said, robin diangelo and white fragility are guilt-tripping
lots of people need lots of education about boundary issues. i myself encountered life experiences that challenged me to step past my defensiveness from past ostracism, and it was totally worth it despite temporary discomfort. no pain no gain. now i see many others, particularly younger folks and those from oppressed groups, who are stuck in the same trap i was. you do not have to stay there.
here are 2 excellent and very accessible resources for awareness about boundaries:
The Empowerment Dynamic
https://www.alibris.com/The-Power-of-Ted-the-Empowerment-Dynamic-10th-Anniversary-Edition-David-Emerald/book/42755102?matches=131
(and this diagram is a good summary after reading the book:
http://www.cbodn.org/Resources/Documents/2013%20Conference/Power%20of%20TED%20Summary%20Two%20Sided%202013_Tso.pdf)
Leadership and Self-Deception
this book shows readers the unconscious psychological process whereby humans scapegoat others after they have disrespected or dehumanized those others
https://arbinger.com/store/leadership-and-self-deception/
I have not finished reading the piece but I have one little question for you as writer and thinker, about the word patriarchy. Once this word, and I am 73, could be used simply to describe older men and their position in the family and therefore in society. Of course, it was seen as the superior position. None the less the patriarch could be a respectable character, and those patriarchal communities which were spread through all cultures were not seen as entirely evil simply because of their patriarchs. And the patriarch could embody all the good qualities of a man. My grandfather for example. Now patriarchy, in our left wing parlance is the embodiment of evil. OK, and yes the world is a messed up place and its certainly not without justification, very easy to place the blame on those who have been in charge. Patriarchy alone is the final answer to the worlds problems. I suspect this is not the case. Something tells me that if we could magically transform the history of world to matriarchal it would not be a magic bullet. To me there is mass scale over simplification in this kind of thinking of, a type of thinking that can be seen in many other questions as well and is leading us astray. More examples later.
What is a better word for the status hierarchy of men at the top and women, children, old people, disabled people, people of colo treated as "less than." I'm happy to use that word. Honorable men are a blessing to their families and the world. It's like the word frugal. A frugal man husbanded resources well, but it came to mean penny pinching, self denying. The deeper issue in our society is that we are not devoted to everyone, not just the patriarch, having the freedom to unfold our lives in a society that welcomes our gifts. a we-the-people society. Even those words back then did not include women or slaves! Or indigenous people who were decimated.
I understand the confusion and resentment of men who unconsciously thought their gender alone gave them privileges. The pendulum swing has swept many decent men into the category of Patriarchy. The solution is not to swing the pendulum back. Imagine how women in Afghanistan felt when the Taliban took away their rights and put them in burkas, after years of the freedom to study, to wear what they liked, to make the friends they wanted to make.
Right now, I bring this up because the rights we've worked for are under threat.
Give me better language and I'll use it.
Here is a suggestion: stop othering men.
I too merrily threw about the phrase "testosterone poisoning'' -- how funny, I thought.
Then I came across the story of a boy who committed suicide because he took it seriously... that and all the BS about our "rape culture."
Enough!
read again . you missed my point
How so?
Edit: Doesn't blaming "patriarchy" as causing the evils of our world by inference *other* all men?
After this discussion, I deleted a response. Perhaps you are right, or right enough. My feeling, that the way we use the term patriarchy is conceptually a bit inadequate, maybe does not hold up to a greater reality, which is that the evils of our society have indeed been organized along patriarchal lines.
i refer to patriarchy as a social disease, not as applying to all men. maybe dominator culture would work as well
"Dominator/domination culture" works. It does not target men, it targets power over.
Nope, they haven't. After many years on the patriarchal side, and all-in with foremother Mary Daly and her clever careening word games, I have concluded we'd been barking at the wrong tree.
It's not men. It's the psychopaths. It's the pathocracy.
It can seem like men, because most of the psychopaths are male (only about 25% are female).
I too am so moved by this piece Vicki, your soul searching, your truth telling, knowing more about your version of this journey toward wholeness that is each of ours to do. I would add to the diversity piece, neuro- diversity as powerfully represented by Nick Walker (they/them) in their book Neuroqueer Heresies. Neurodiversity as seen outside of the “disease” paradigm, not as “divergence” from the norm but as its own uniquely valid and beautiful expression of another way of being human. I am privileged to be walking that path with my grandchildren.
Thank you for your courage and en-courage-ment 🙏🏼
Wow. So much in here, “telling it like it is” and was, along with bits of history that confirm so much of what I already feel about you. So glad we share this world, and especially this tiny bit of it. Keep sharing your truths!
Important work in coming of aging is reflecting on the stages of my evolution into who I am today. I appreciate your telling of your story. It shows a thought process I respect. Thank you for sharing.
I'm glad it resonates with your own life process. One north star of my work for decades has been simply to move people with my words.
I resonate with so much of what you wrote in this essay
All those words can be said more pleasantly, IMHO and because I'm not an avid reader, by a Song!
Husbands and Wives ~ Roger Miller
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv941OfJeSM
This rings so true. I appreciate you so much! Thank you!
Wonderful, heart- and mind-opening piece, my friend! So much to ponder. So much to care about. Age does offer an expanded perspective. I remember in the '80s when I first met you and your UV family.... how impressed I was by your chosen lifestyle. But I always silently wondered, "How are the women doing...really?" I have found myself asking this question again and again in many contexts since then.
all i can say is it was complicated, but we were so gracious with one another, and our work was so heartfelt that we all rose above.
Ahh what a broken world we live in. Thanks for shedding light on some of the internal isms that plague us all.
Vicki, this is so inspiring on many levels. Thank you for the hard work of living these truths and putting them into words.